Attorneys for the Missoula man accused of killing German exchange student Diren Dede say the teen's companion on the night of the shooting told police they had entered local garages on several previous occasions.

Paul Ryan, who represents Markus Kaarma, said the other teenager was a foreign exchange student from Ecuador who has since returned to his home country. He didn’t release the student’s name.

Kaarma, 29, is charged with deliberate homicide for shooting Dede twice in the early hours of April 27, after Dede and his companion entered Kaarma’s Grant Creek garage.

The Ecuadorian exchange student fled the scene after shots were fired, but later agreed to be interviewed by police.

Ryan said the friend told police that he and Dede started “garage hopping” after they learned about the practice from other students at Big Sky High School. It’s unknown if Dede and his companion had burglarized Kaarma’s garage prior to the shooting.

In a statement released Tuesday, Ryan said Kaarma and his wife, Janelle Pflager, had been burglarized twice prior to the night of the fatal shooting and they felt uneasy, especially with their 10-month-old son in the home.

He said the burglars in the prior incidents didn’t enter the residence, but took credit cards and phones from the garage. The couple contacted law enforcement once to report the burglaries, but received little assistance, Ryan wrote.

“Markus felt a high level of fear and anxiety for himself and his family due to the burglaries and lack of response from law enforcement,” he said.

The couple decided to set up a video camera and a motion sensor in their garage to detect an intruder. At 12:30 a.m., they were alerted to Dede’s presence in their garage.

Ryan claims “they watched in fear and terror” as the intruder entered the garage and headed toward the kitchen door. Kaarma, Ryan wrote, believed the intruder posed “an imminent threat” to himself and his family.

The 29-year-old former firefighter got up from the couch and grabbed a shotgun before exiting the front door and turning to face the dark garage. He fired four shots into the darkness, while his wife called 9-1-1.

After Kaarma hit and mortally wounded Dede, Ryan said Pflager administered “lifesaving procedures” and comforted Dede.

Dede was pronounced dead later that morning at St. Patrick Hospital.

***

Prosecutors allege that Kaarma intentionally baited the burglars into the garage by leaving the door open and placing a purse inside. Ryan staunchly refutes that claim.

“The family’s garage door was open for ventilation because Markus and Janelle smoke cigarettes in the garage and had done so minutes before this tragedy,” Ryan wrote.

The purse, Ryan said, wasn’t in plain view, but was in the back of the garage.

Missoula police suspect Kaarma had used marijuana the night of the shooting, but Ryan refused to directly answer questions regarding the allegation.

“We are waiting for the blood results to come back from the drug test, and after that we will have further comment on the issue,” Ryan said.

Missoula Detective Dean Chrestenson requested a blood sample from Kaarma following the shooting.

According to a search warrant released Tuesday, the couple’s neighbors reported Kaarma smoked marijuana in the garage on occasion and burglars had stolen marijuana and marijuana pipes prior to April 27’s fatal shooting.

A search of the couple’s home also revealed a mason jar full of marijuana, the search warrant stated.

The results of the blood test are expected to be completed within the month.

In his statement, Ryan also said that Kaarma and Pflager’s homeowners assocation sent out an email on April 24, informing the neighborhood of several recent burglaries.

Kaarma, who is free on bail, is set to be arraigned on May 12 at 4 p.m. in Missoula County District Court. Kaarma plans on entering a not guilty plea.

“We intend to pursue all available legal options so that Markus will be exonerated of this charge,” Ryan said Tuesday, “as we believe he defended his family and himself against an unwanted intruder burglarizing his home.”

Ryan has assembled a team of Missoula defense attorneys to represent Kaarma, including Brian Smith, Katie Lacny, Nate Holloway and Lisa Kauffman.

Reporter Kathryn Haake can be reached at 523-5268 or at kate.haake@missoulian.com.

(250) comments

74griz
74griz

Jake, if you are going to 'season' someone, add pepper, meat tenderized, etc., not just rock salt. If you are going to shoot at someone, you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill, period. Therefore, the proper load is important. Buckshot. At any rate, you take cover and identify your target. You don't shoot into a dark garage. Dede is dead. One less burglar in the world. As for you pro-German posters, I'll bet a burglar in Germany will spend less time behind bars than a 'holocost denier.' Ja?

JakeJ
JakeJ

@griz, there's a long country tradition of loading rock salt into shotguns to drive away unwelcome intruders, critter and human, without killing them. I think it's a pretty good way to go, as long as you've got a semiauto with serious firepower after the rock salt, and provided that the rock salt round is carefully made so it won't render the shotgun unfireable.

I'm not real eager to kill anyone, although I'm also not real eager to take sides against someone whose first round is buckshot. But I do chuckle at the thought that a couple rounds of rock salt at close range might somehow be considered kind 'n gentle.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

74: this is zebra thinking . you are painting a totally false picture of reality . look closer and you will understand! god bless diren !

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

the announced killing of kids is not comprehensible and not justifiable :Guilty!

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

the announced and completed killing of kids is not comprehensible and not justifiable with nothing in the civilized world:GUILTY

Under German Law
Under German Law

@jake thx,
Thanks for the note about the Godwin's law. I did not know before. and learned again^ ^ If the states the visa conditions change again (fingerprints). I was one of the first tourists. But unfortunately it is against my personal freedom to assign as much information to a government (including fingerprints). That is not meant unkindly.
if we now sets up the thesis that the killing of pepole out of base motives is a ideologies. Would not that be reason enough to be cautious. Because we know where any false ideologies lead up. It's not the government that represents this opinion. they are neighbors, siblings, parents, work colleagues. It scares me everywhere to be hit by a bullet. (ricochets (Querschlaeger), In the airline behind a victim (Criminal) or are not aware that you are on private property. Assistance and located on the property in the dark not find your way) or when a person with Alzheimer enter the property. There are certainly more reasons that have shown me that I would be always in the presence of these people in mortal danger.

JakeJ
JakeJ

I think to not come here because of the requirement for a fingerprint id misguided. Even in the far reaches of this country, no one can get lost and stay lost. But it's your choice, of course, and in any case I do not feel insulted at all. I think your other fears are vastly inflated. You're far more likely to be killed by a traffic accident than by a bullet, and even more likely to be killed by a rattlesnake or an angry head of cattle than by a stray bullet. You are letting your imagination spin too many scare stories inside your head.

JakeJ
JakeJ

I've commented a lot, but never wrote in this thread how I'd have handled it if I were in Kaarma's position, having been burglarized twice without much of any help from the police, but possessing a semiautomatic shotgun.

I'd have loaded it with a mixture of ammunition, so the first two rounds would be rock salt. In this case, it'd have scared the hell out of the kid but left him with nothing more than a few pockmarks. The following rounds would've been a couple birdshot, then a couple buckshot. (Don't know how big the magazine is, but I'll assume six rounds for now.)

To read the law, it doesn't look like the shooting was legally justified. But I can certainly sympathize with the homeowner, especially seeing as how this was the third recent burglary attempt that we know about. I don't think the marijuana in his house counts against him unless there's a lot more to that side of the story than we have yet to be told.

I do think the alleged statements to the hair stylist, and the one report of the shooter's alleged strange behavior in his car prior to the shootings, are relevant. It's impossible to know if those accounts are true or accurate. If they are, then they would (and should) count against the shooter.

All that said, on the general principle I am 100% in favor of the right of armed self defense, and if there is uncertainty in the matter I would be inclined to favor the homeowner. I find it pretty surprising that Montana teenagers would "garage hop" in such a heavily armed state. I sure as hell wouldn't do it at any age, and if I had kids they'd be told to stay the hell off of other people's property except in an emergency -- and then, to make their need and non-hostility crystal clear.

One way or another, whether or not Kaarma broke the law, that exchange student was a burglar who'd done it before, and a complete idiot for doing it in Montana. I can't say I'm overflowing with sympathy, to put it politely.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

jake has got evil demons, he, byron smith ,mn and kaarma are all the same ilk.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

thre was no immediat peril to kaarma because he awaited diren already and was prepared. he'd planned it .So he will get his 50 years sentence to think about his dirty character. Montana state prosecutors I very much trust in.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

when jake admits , that he doesn't think,that the shooting was legally justified,he is at my side. jake, Know i got you !

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

this here is a clash of opinions of wide range.I am with you,young teenage boy diren dede. god bless you. just a prank and kaarma knew it.

Under German Law
Under German Law

ups sorry . i mean 40 Million not percent

Under German Law
Under German Law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American

Under German Law
Under German Law


Addendum: and if the problem relates to my ancestors because I am German ancestry, then 40% of Americans could also be guilty because they have German ancestors. And I would feel guilty for the American history because 40% are just German descent

JakeJ
JakeJ

@UGL, are you familiar with "Godwin's Law?" Some guy named Godwin promulgated it in 1990 as a joke, but there's a lot of truth in it.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Believe me, you don't have to be German to be called a Nazi in an American online "discussion."

Under German Law
Under German Law

@74griz Why some people starts talking about the past of germany, if you participate as a German in discussions. Yes, we have done bad things in the past, but there is almost no generation-been actively involved would be. And even if I'm going to take all polite and nice Americans on the toes, but you will not be addressed again and again on the genocide of Native Americans. So let us not discuss at this level. I explain that i try to understand the mindset. Sorry for the middle sentence!!!

JakeJ
JakeJ

Please don't take those insults seriously. This is the Internet, where people say all kinds of things that they don't really mean.

74griz
74griz

Dede got what he deserved. If the Missoula Police had done their job and caught the thieving ***after his OTHER crimes, he'd still be alive. Some of you supposedly German posters should do some digging and find out about his criminal past in der Fatherland. The only question during a break-in at my house would be caliber.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

All this tough girl talk.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

objection! byron smith ,minnesota murderer, and kaarma are the same ilk. for diren ,being an exchange student in the U.S. ,was his american dream come true . Don't you get that?this garage hopping was more kind of a prank for him! god bless the teenage boy diren!

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

diren has been interviewed by german and american authorities before becoming an exchange student .he surely didn't have any criminal records .otherwise he wouldn't have gotten a visa. god bless diren!

Skinwalker
Skinwalker

Killing a teenaged kid for walking into your open garage. I feel safer already. With the 30,000 gun deaths each year in the U.S. you would think we would be the safest country in the world. Strangely, we are not. Welcome to Somalia, where there are no gun regulations and everyone is safe from crime.

Under German Law
Under German Law

@all - sorry for my bad grammar. it must sounds terrible. i hope the meaning is the same as in german. so that i dont insulting anyone and i hope that i use accurate words.

JakeJ
JakeJ

@UGL, you're doing fine.

Under German Law
Under German Law

@zauberzahn
this was a example for common sense (microwave). that was my first topic "Common Sense".
With the comment I wanted to offend anyone.

Under German Law
Under German Law


it is not my intention to offend a Amerkaner or American. I'm just trying to understand why you are so intent on carrying weapons or why the crime is so diffrent from the rest of the leading Nations . In my opinion it is an ideology that can be just dangerous as the ideologies of the Nazis or similar groupings. If there are enough like-minded people would be present, as it is then for the people who do not think so. If they are then at risk. These are my reasons why I want to discuss this here with citizens of the United States. I know that I use only statistics and theses from the Internet, but I have in my time as a soldier know a lot of American Soldier and appreciate. Your country is one of the leading industrial nations of the world, so I would have expected from emerging countries or third world countries. The violence in America simply has other forms than the rest of the industrialized countries. In my opinion it is brutal and final as else where.
About 1 percent of American adults are in prison (Worldrecord). You can in my opinion not lock up everything forever and continue to believe it will come. How many prisoners do you want to have in 2050? The prisoners are Americans who are likely fall through the system. America has made law enforcement a huge industry.The state would have to allow the duty of the inhabitants equal opportunities. But you'll fall through the grid, if you live in the wrong road. I think the States has so much opportunities to fix these Problems, but when so much people has the wrong view, then it will be hard at all what to change.

JakeJ
JakeJ

@UGL, you must remember that there are about 250 million adult Americans. There is no "you" here. "We" are not "intent on carrying weapons." In fact, very few of us are. The percentage of Americans who own guns has actually declined in the last 40 years, because hunting has declined.

The decline of hunting has happened for a number of reasons. It has always been a more rural and working class activity, and less of the American population is either rural or working class than it used to be. Even in rural areas, FAR more land has become "posted," an American term referring to the posting of "no trespassing" and "no hunting" signs on private land in rural areas. Places where hunters once roamed free are now closed off. Ranchers who own the land will supplement their ranching income by charging high fees to hunt.

The result of the decline of hunting has been a general decline in gun ownership. It has been somewhat but not completely counterbalanced by an increase in gun ownership for personal protection. As a result, gun ownership was once 40%, and is now 33%. The overwhelming majority of those guns are stored away rather than carried.

The reason we have so many prisoners is mainly that we had a strong national reaction against rising crime. The rates of crime soared for about 25 years, and the public demanded the tightening law enforcement. All of this takes time to work its way through our system, which with respect to law enforcement is highly decentralized.

The increased rates of incarceration have resulted in dramatically lower crime rates throughout America. While there are still parts of some cities that remain dangerous, the overall crime rate has fallen steeply, and there are whole sections of cities that were dangerous 40 years ago that are now safe. This is a direct result of higher rates of incarceration.

Atheist Educator
Atheist Educator

AL KIPF said "With all the boo hoo hoo'ing, it's about time someone came clean with what the punk was doing trespassing to begin with. "

This, from AL KIPF, who has also been advocating that the government "come clean" about how the Sandy Hook school shooting was a "hit" by federal operatives.

Hamburg449
Hamburg449

@ zauberzahn
You are insulting me! I miss profound argumentation? Peradventure you may have general problems with free speech? Did you realised, that this is a site abroad and you are not sitting your living room in a scruffy suburb of a German metro region? Therefore you may consider to be politeful, because your behaviour is displeasing me and aggrieves kudos of Germany. In Germany it is standard to bully opponents and their diverging point of views. Annoying implications of " Immigration of the Wrong" and crisis of education systems. Not so in the US and the rest of our world. Insofar your behaviour is not appropiate. Only a humble suggestion, of course.

JakeJ
JakeJ

@Hamburg449, don't let that commenter get to you. Some people are addicted to their self-righteousness, and I'm afraid "zauberzahn" is one of them. I hope you can come visit the Western United States sometime. I'm sure you'd love it.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

jake,the filibusterer!

JakeJ
JakeJ

Do you have a point to make, perhaps?

Vielfrass
Vielfrass

It is sometimes a challenge to wade through the obstacles such as "magic tooth" (Zauberzahn) here, and Democide who, if you consider his screen name, apparently wants to kill DemoCRATS or demoCRACY or both.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

r u thinskinned, or what.when it comes to strangers you are not shy for an embarassment!

Under German Law
Under German Law

@Jake thanks to inviting me to your great country. Maybe one day i will visit the states.
I don´t know if the statistic below is true. i know there a polite people in the states.but this show me that something goes wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/28cnd-prison.html?_r=0

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Germany
http://www.bka.de/nn_194552/EN/Publications/PoliceCrimeStatistics/policeCrimeStatistics__node.html?__nnn=true
https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13732
http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf


JakeJ
JakeJ

@UGL, I cannot be the spokesman for everything here, nor would I try to tell anyone that we don't have our serious problems in the United States, just as Germany has its own serious problems. Crime is a multi-faceted topic, with more to say than space or reading time would reasonably permit here.

If we met in person, we could easily spend an entire afternoon talking about it. Which would be great, because I almost always love talking to Germans about complex topics. I once spent two hours at a hotel bar talking to a German dwarf who was in Koln for a convention of the handicapped. I learned from him that the U.S. is generally considered by the handicapped of Europe to be the "gold standard" of accommodations.

My previous comments to you were very much oriented toward a traveler's perspective. I have been to all 50 states here, and have lived in the East, Midwest, and West. This is a physically vast and socially diverse country. There are always surprises, some of them not happy, but I do think I have enough experience and perspective (including about 20 trips of various types and durations in Europe) to make some general statements with confidence.

Come visit if you can. The urban United States (with some exceptions) is noticeably safer than it was 40 years ago. The rural and small-town West is exceptionally safe, friendly, polite, welcoming, and peaceful. And the West, in particular, is stunningly beautiful -- and not only in the national parks. We have so much space here that it's hard to even adequately describe it to any European. There is so much beauty here that the guidebooks don't have room for it.

What happened to the exchange student was HIGHLY unusual. No matter what you read or see in your media (which love to tell people what they want to hear, and feed their fears), I am very, very confident that you would find America, and Americans, to be quite civilized, and your welcome warm. Make sure to go to a rodeo if you come. Nothing more Western or more American or more fun than that.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

are you a representive for the tourist sector?! or what's this now

JakeJ
JakeJ

No, I am am American who is bats*** crazy in love with the West. I come by it honestly, having actually (for real) driven the length and breadth of this country, and stopped many a-time along the way, and having put on 5,000+ miles on the roads of Europe.

I'm not a "representative" of anything. I love where I live. I welcome everyone. I've been the recipient of many acts of kindness overseas, and genuinely enjoy repaying. You in Europe have the best cities in my opinion, but when it comes to the wide open countryside, America is INSANELY beautiful.

No one in Europe should be afraid to come here, especially to the West. If you want to get all high and mighty about it, fine. But I've met plenty of Europeans along our lonely roads who "get it." If you don't want to come here, the loss is strictly your own.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

jake,you with your complacency aren't worth to comment about! you think ,the killing of diren is just a negligence ,I believe. disgusting

Paying Attention
Paying Attention

THANK YOU LAWMAN!!!! at May 7, 2014 8:33 am.
This subject is soliciting a lot of public opinion!
But I am very glad the Police Dept. is going to take proactive steps in educating Missoula youth. Bravo!

RPT
RPT

As I understand it Dede was a Turk.. Born and raised there as a Turk not a German and now buried in his homeland.. Turkey.
So why are all these Germans showing up here expressing their mostly negative opinions about America and what happened between Kaarma and Dede that night?
Germany was no different then America in that they played a temporary role as a host country for a short time for the Dede’s .
And for all we know he had a worse criminal record in Germany then what we know he was guilty of while he was here in the U.S.
Who cares what these Germans think of America?.. They have enough problems in their own country they should be trying to solve without worrying
about us and our laws.

Under German Law
Under German Law

I understand your right to bear arms, what scares me is the frequently use. It makes me sad. that a great nation in terms of humanity has such a large deficit. Here is not an eye for an eye, but even minor reasons to lose his life.
I understand the circumstance with a huge land and less people, but we hear and read about shooting and killing from big city or small towns.

Under German Law
Under German Law

@dave
Thanks for your comment.
I think you're right. For miles away from civilization, I would also like something with which I could defend myself. But if it is reported from the USA (Shooting), then it happens in big cities or small towns. I think that it encourages one to act against common sense. I would not want to bring myself and my family in danger. But if it couldnot avoided, then it would deadly force the last option, not the first.
An example in Switzerland has almost every man Heckler Koch G3 an automatic or G36 in the closet and still I do not read of deadly shootings in the newspapers.

I don´t know if the follwing term/link is true. It show us how it can be with more weapon

German Police Fired 85 Bullets All Year, US Police Use 90 on 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCzT4njsyH4

In our darkest hour, the people also had weapons, but that has not prevented the Nazis or the Holocaust.

DaveQ
DaveQ

German Law,
I believe that Europe has more violent crime per capita than the US. I know the UK does. I lived there and experienced it myself. The media is hyper focused on every gun related violence. Gun related violence end up in someone dying or murder. Taking away guns will not stop violent crime but increase it. A criminal will be more likely to break in to a home if he knows there is no gun in the home. A person will be more likely to start a violent argument if he knows the other person is not armed. This is one reason that you will find most people in Montana are very polite and mind their own business. If you are rude to a person and an argument begins, it may end up in someone having their life threatened or taken. We are humble and polite to each other because our guns are equalizers. Just because another man is bigger than me does not mean he will win the argument here. We also have very low crime because most people understand that we will defend ourselves and our property with our lives. Try researching violent crime per capita in the U.S. versus E.U.

Secondly, some of your citizens were armed but the goal is that every citizen is armed to the maximum. If this were true, again Hitler would not have happened.

Our ancestors said:

Patrick Henry: "The great objective is that every man be armed. . . . Everyone who is able may have a gun."

Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."

Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

may be you forgot, the europeans don't own weapons or can purchase them at around nearly every corner!

Vielfrass
Vielfrass

You make some interesting points Dave. The violent crime comparison is more complicated than you let on here. Crimes are defined differently in different places. For instance, Scotland has 1665 assaults per 100,000 while Ireland has 93. Are these countries so radically different? Crimes are also reported differently by the victims. In 2008 America had 91,000 rapes while in Russia it was only 6200. If Russia's population equaled the US population, that would be only 13,640 rapes compared to the 91,000 in the USA. In India there are only about 21,000 rapes in a country with over 1 billion people. This is of course complete nonsense. So be careful with your claims Dave.

Homicide is however, more clear cut. It is much harder to define differently or to simply not report. Not entirely impossible, but much more difficult. That said, please explain the following:

Intentional homicide count/rate (per 100,000):
USA 14,173 / 4.8
United Kingdom 722 / 1.2
Germany 690 / 0.8

Speaking of civility, I grew up in Missoula but have lived in Berlin for the last several years. I also travel extensively in Europe.

Missoula IS generally civil as you say. Probably more so than in Berlin. The difference is however, not huge. Berlin also has over three million people, which takes a toll on civility. I find Berlin at least as civil as Seattle, Portland, and some other US cities which I know well.

Also, please read up on the origins and spread of national socialism in Germany. There are too many problems with your claim to address here (unless your really want to). To get a really good picture of it, I recommend the extraordinary "Geschichte eines Deutschen" written by Sebastian Haffner (English title: Defying Hitler).

DaveQ
DaveQ

Vielfrass,

I agree. Violent crime statistics are complicated and can be difficult to discern. I lived in Europe for 10 years and I grew up in a small town 100 miles from Missoula. I was born in Hot Springs on the Indian Reservation (IANAI). We had German, Swedish, Finnish, and Colombian exchange students living in our home growing up. I was also an exchange student to Europe. So, I can relate to many aspects of this situation. The German poster's primary question or concern seems to be that the force used was disproportionate to the crime commited. The part of his post where he thought that the reason we have the right to bear arm in case of civil war was the part that I wanted to correct. It would be impossible to understand how we got to where we are without knowing where we came from.

We can go back to the civility discussion; I enjoy these types of discussions but I am also a little perplexed regarding the image the media portrays of the U.S. and the way many people in the U.S. speak about our constitutional rights. A prime example would be zauberzahn who posts one liners that appear to be borne from a narrow mind. We are certain that Dede commited a crime but it has not been determined as of yet if Kaama has commited a crime. I personally believe that he used bad judgement and justice could have been served without the violent death of the intruder. I believe Kaama cannot be held completely responsible for the death of Dede but we may find that he will have to bear some of it. He may be a bad person to begin with. He may have an anger issue. He was probably testing the limits of the Castle Doctrine and he may go to jail/prison for a long time.

I could write a long list of violent crimes I witnessed in the U.K. and other places in Europe. I did see a man get his knee caps blown off by a sawed off shot gun in the U.K. I saw a massive brawl in a pub whereby several people were stabbed and some died. I saw people being glassed in the face, I saw a policeman beaten half to death. I witnessed riots, etc. Much of the violence I witnessed was a result of youth consuming alcohol/other drugs and seeking violence. Many younger men go out to drink and specifically commit violent acts. As a young man in Europe, I was out and about a lot and it required some precautions to ensure that I was not involved in any situation whereby I would be sent home. I once had a gun pointed at me in the East end of London. I ran away with my life and was able to find the police just around the corner. They found the suspect and let him go. They did not detain him and did not search the park where he most likely threw his weapon. Violence is rampant in the U.K. and much of it is instigated knowing that the victim will not be armed. Much of the violence is not reported because often times, both the victim and the perpetrator would do anything but involve the authorities.

Regardless of what happened in Germany that led to the totalitarian state of Hitler's Germany, the reason we have the right to bear arms and the reason that our Founding Fathers included the right to bear arms is not really debatable. It was so the United States citizens are not subject to the likes of dictators whether from our own governments or any other government. I firmly believe that if Germany and its citizens were well armed for the same reasons we are, they could have avoided much of their "darkest hour".

Vielfrass
Vielfrass

Great comment Dave, and thanks for the time you apparently put into it. I don't have time now, but please check back soon.

JakeJ
JakeJ

@Dave, I agree with your observations about violence in the U.S. compared with Europe, and especially the U.K. I think Americans have a badly outdated view of Britain, perceiving it to be far more tranquil, polite, and safe than it actually is.

When it comes to violence here, I think that, for the vast majority, violence is not part of American life. Murders are usually among criminals, or arising out of domestic disputes. The exceptions, of course, are the highly publicized and deeply disturbing random spree killings in a school, a shopping mall, a workplace. They are rare, but they make indelible impressions.

Dave, where I part company is on the underlying reasons for gun ownership. I think the "protection from tyranny" rationale is almost always post hoc, i.e. after-the-fact justification. Someone gets a gun through inheritance, or to hunt, or to shoot targets, or to defend the house, and some think, "Yeah, and this is to defend my rights against tyranny." I really don't think many people get the gun specifically to protect themselves against the government.

As for guns and the Nazis, before they took power one of Germany's big domestic problems, fed by the inflation and depression of the 1920s, and the spillover effects of the Bolshevik revolution and mass displacement of entire populations in Central Europe, was disorder bordering on chaos in Germany's public places. Specifically, the centrist moderate parties had declined, and the extremists had risen, and many of the extremists, especially the communists and the Nazis, had political armies.

There was a lot of gunplay in Germany in the late 1920s and early 1930s, and it deeply shocked, worried, and offended the middle class. There was a great deal of support for the Nazis as a force to re-impose order, part of which meant the disarming of the communists and those perceived as such. Any support there might have been for "armed resistance to tyranny" had disappeared by 1933. The Germans were sick and tired of armed anything in their streets. Outside their borders was different, but they wanted peaceful streets.

For that and many other reasons, this amateur but widely read student of German history from 1850 to 1945 emphatically disagrees with the American gun rughts crowd's throwaway lines about how public gun ownership would've stopped the Nazis. The German public, as a whole, didn't want the Nazis stopped.

Now, I am in favor of "the individual right to keep and bear arms, and to use them in self defense." I agree with your careful exposition of the Kaarma shooting, and of his potential criminal liability, as well as the criminality of the youthful burglar. But I really think the issues here are not guns to protect against tyranny, either here or in 1930s Germany. Even the "castle doctrine" issue might wind up being a stretch.

What gives me the most pause of all is the idea that Germans and Europeans might be afraid to travel to the Western United States because of this. Now, that would truly be unfortunate, because I think we can all quite readily agree that this killing was highly unusual, and not representative of life in Montana, or the vast open spaces of the West, which truly put the beautiful in America the Beautiful.

Vielfrass
Vielfrass

Americans view of the UK is not so important. The numbers indicate that one is four times more likely to be murdered in the US than the UK. And six times more likely compared to Germany. This is not really debatable. A recurring point in these discussions goes something like this, "yeah America does have a high gun violence rate, but it is mostly in cities. We in more rural areas are not as affected by it." While this may be true, it is not particularly relevant. The highest crime rates in the UK are also found in the most urban areas. One can discuss this point to death, but it really doesn't bring us any further. Chicago and Missoula are both America. if we speak about an "American" gun violence problem, we must include both. I would imagine that many residents of Missoula visit larger cities from time to time. For these people, the abstract idea of urban crime suddenly becomes more real.

Dave: your experiences with violence in the UK seem pretty remarkable. I lead a very unsheltered life in Berlin, and I have no such stories to tell. Maybe because I don't frequent clubs favored by the 18-25 year-old crowd. Even if I did have such stories, they would be purely observational in nature. When comparing systems, the numbers are what actually count; in this case homicide statistics, because other crimes are often defined/reported differently from country to country. I think we can agree that in the "violent crime club", homicide is pretty much the top dog.

We are however, spinning our wheels here. The reality is that Americans have 300,000,000 guns. This is not going to change. I can make country comparisons all day long but it means nothing. Guns are not going away; we have too many for this dream to ever become reality. Every time there is a mass shooting, liberals (I am a "liberal", but not one of these liberals) clamor to ban dangerous looking rifles. This is of course completely ridiculous. Anyone with even a little experience with firearms knows that a theater or school shooting could be just as deadly with a Glock rather than a semi-automatic magazine-fed rifle. But the liberals go after the mean looking rifles that are used in only a tiny fraction of gun violence in America.

On the other side, gun conservatives have a strange dogmatic interpretation of the second amendment, which blinds them to the modern reality of gun violence in this country. "It is our right!" they chant, as each year the equivalent population of Butte or Helena loses their lives to firearms in America. At the same time, weapons ARE banned in America, with the happy acceptance of these same conservatives. I just have to go through a partial list of weapons familiar to me from my time in the military:

M60 7.62 machine gun
m249 SAW 5.56 automatic weapon
M2 .50 caliber machine gun (which can even kill you from the back side if you attempt to take off the butt plate when the retaining rod spring is under tension!)
Mk19 40mm automatic grenade launcher
Bushmaster 25mm cannon.

Why are these weapons not available to the general public? It may seem a little ridiculous, but the question is meant seriously. Why can't a private citizen own the Blackhawk helicopter variant AH-60 Direct Action Penetrator (DAP) with full armament? Ignore the practicality for a moment, and answer based strictly upon the second amendment. I would venture to make the claim that certain weapons are banned because of the danger posed by having these weapons in private hands. If this reasoning is valid with certain weapons (the ones I listed), why is it not valid for other weapons which lead to 30,000 dead Americans every year? It is important to note that I DO NOT advocate banning all guns. I just want to illustrate that a particular interpretation of the second amendment makes very little sense in 2014.

Jake: good answer on the Nazi question. I don't really have anything to add. I can just say that it is quite tedious to read references to Naziism every time Germany turns up in a discussion.

Please read the Sebastian Haffner book that I recommended. He had a great insight. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/25/books/review/25SCHOENF.html

JakeJ
JakeJ

@Vielfrass, in different comments (wow, I've really let myself get sucked into this), I wrote about my resistance to being drawn into discussions about the second amendment, on the grounds that a) they boil down to faith-based political theory, and b) the second amendment stuff is almost always a post-hoc justification for other motives and/or circumstances.

I repeat my appeal to a practical view. In the end, this will be decided by a jury of 12 Montana citizens who will apply the law pursuant to instructions from a judge. American juries are somewhat renowned for how seriously they take their task; a lot more seriously than Internet commenters take their comments.

The law in Montana and elsewhere is pretty clear, and upon deeper reflection, as little as I sympathize with the dead burglar, I don't think second amendment or personal self-defense arguments will get the shooter off the hook. In the end, I think Mr. Kaarma will be held liable for some version of manslaughter, i.e. a lesser murder charge.

As for "an American gun violence problem" that throws the South Side of Chicago and Missoula, Montana into the same pot, well, there is some justification for that analysis because the same general access to firearms applies everywhere. But the details vary so widely that, at the very least, the wide differences must be taken into account.

I'm not going to burden myself with the task of locating and rendering the precise differences in rates of crime and murder in Chicago and Missoula, but will simply say with high confidence that they are exponential. I would further suggest that Montana's visitors to Chicago don't go on their meaner streets. And I would reiterate a statement in a different comment that crime rates (including murder, even in the big cities) are much lower now than they were 30 or 40 years ago.

Which is to say: What happened to Diren Dede was wildly unrepresentative of all but the very most violent corners of the roughest cities, and you can multiply that by 10 and raise to the third power for the rural West. That said, this is a vast country with a population approaching one-third of a billion people. Lots can happen, and if one looks for the worst they'll find it, American being nothing if not a smorgasbord of people, places, attitudes, and outcomes.

Back to that second amendment. The Supreme Court ruled that it recognizes an individual right to keep and bear arms, and to use them in self-defense. It is legal fir governments to place reasonable restrictions, including to define what constitutes self defense. There is no right of rebellion, armed or otherwise, regardless of what some self-duded extremist thinks.

The overwhelming majority of people in this country take a practical view. To the extent that this case is controversial, it's not because of a government tyranny issue, it's because Diren Dede was a criminal engaged in something that makes Americans' blood run ice cold -- the invasion of someone's home. That is a VERY big no-no from sea to shining sea.

Regardless of what Internet comment sections or news headlines might say or suggest, the debate over this case in this country isn't about the second amendment. It is about the limits of armed self-defense. This is a very practical debate, or at least it arises from practical considerations. I would emphatically urge you to temper that characteristic (and admirable and appealing, to me) European instinct to grapple with theory, and instead look at the micro-motives and realities of what transpired on a particular night.

To be out-West sarcastic: "If you're a thief, it's best not to burglarize a murderer's house. He might be convicted, but you'll wind up dead."

Finally: Thanks for your comment about my thumbnail sketch of German history. I could say a great deal more about the antecedents of 1933-1945, but for the moment you can count me among those who are frequently frustrated and bemused by discussions of it, even among those who pretend to be intelligent on the issues.

Vielfrass
Vielfrass

Jake, you wrote:

"I would emphatically urge you to temper that characteristic (and admirable and appealing, to me) European instinct to grapple with theory, and instead look at the micro-motives and realities of what transpired on a particular night."

I am doing this as well. The hundreds of comments about this case naturally gravitate polarizing points, but have often only a tenuous relationship with the actual case at hand.

Chances of this sort of occurance are tiny in Missoula and generally in the West as you stated. Starting from that point, we see that the relative safety enjoyed in the West is quite a gift. Many have firearms, almost none use them. This indicates to me that a certain respect and carefulness goes with owning a gun in rural America. IF the accusations against Kaarma are true, he did not possess such qualities. Home intrusion is also a big no-no beyond the shining seas. But no matter where you are, only the use of necessary force to protect life is acceptable. I have had a lot of military training with tactics and firearms, and find it inconceivable that a person could leave his house and shoot into a dark garage where another human being is standing. Ethically and tactically an absurd course of action. This is not a defense of Diren's behavior. Some not-so-bright bulbs commenting on thiese threads seem to think that a condemnation of Kaarma = support of garage trespassing. Not true.

As to the Second Ammendment, I generally share your interpretation of the ammendment. Dave made a claim with which I disagreed. I am not sure that only a few extremists hold the armed rebellion interpretation. Look to the recent Clive Bundy case.

Check out an essay by Sam Harris. He is a godless liberal such as I, but sifts the nonsense out of the gun debate as well as anyone could hope to do. Here is the beginning of his rather long essay:

"Fantasists and zealots can be found on both sides of the debate over guns in America. On the one hand, many gun-rights advocates reject even the most sensible restrictions on the sale of weapons to the public. On the other, proponents of stricter gun laws often seem unable to understand why a good person would ever want ready access to a loaded firearm. Between these two extremes we must find grounds for a rational discussion about the problem of gun violence...."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun

Unlike most Americans, I stand on both sides of this debate. I understand the apprehension that many people feel toward “gun culture,” and I share their outrage over the political influence of the National Rifle Association. How is it that we live in a society in which one of the most compelling interests is gun ownership? Where is the science lobby? The safe food lobby? Where is the get-the-Chinese-lead-paint-out-of-our-kids’-toys lobby? When viewed from any other civilized society on earth, the primacy of guns in American life seems to be a symptom of collective psychosis.

Most of my friends do not own guns and never will. When asked to consider the possibility of keeping firearms for protection, they worry that the mere presence of them in their homes would put themselves and their families in danger. Can’t a gun go off by accident? Wouldn’t it be more likely to be used against them in an altercation with a criminal? I am surrounded by otherwise intelligent people who imagine that the ability to dial 911 is all the protection against violence a sane person ever needs.

But, unlike my friends, I own several guns and train with them regularly. Every month or two, I spend a full day shooting with a highly qualified instructor. This is an expensive and time-consuming habit, but I view it as part of my responsibility as a gun owner. It is true that my work as a writer has added to my security concerns somewhat, but my involvement with guns goes back decades. I have always wanted to be able to protect myself and my family, and I have never had any illusions about how quickly the police can respond when called. I have expressed my views on self-defense elsewhere. Suffice it to say, if a person enters your home for the purpose of harming you, you cannot reasonably expect the police to arrive in time to stop him. This is not the fault of the police—it is a problem of physics.

Like most gun owners, I understand the ethical importance of guns and cannot honestly wish for a world without them. I suspect that sentiment will shock many readers. Wouldn’t any decent person wish for a world without guns? In my view, only someone who doesn’t understand violence could wish for such a world. A world without guns is one in which the most aggressive men can do more or less anything they want. It is a world in which a man with a knife can rape and murder a woman in the presence of a dozen witnesses, and none will find the courage to intervene. There have been cases of prison guards (who generally do not carry guns) helplessly standing by as one of their own was stabbed to death by a lone prisoner armed with an improvised blade. The hesitation of bystanders in these situations makes perfect sense—and “diffusion of responsibility” has little to do with it. The fantasies of many martial artists aside, to go unarmed against a person with a knife is to put oneself in very real peril, regardless of one’s training. The same can be said of attacks involving multiple assailants. A world without guns is a world in which no man, not even a member of Seal Team Six, can reasonably expect to prevail over more than one determined attacker at a time. A world without guns, therefore, is one in which the advantages of youth, size, strength, aggression, and sheer numbers are almost always decisive. Who could be nostalgic for such a world?

Of course, owning a gun is not a responsibility that everyone should assume. Most guns kept in the home will never be used for self-defense. They are, in fact, more likely to be used by an unstable person to threaten family members or to commit suicide. However, it seems to me that there is nothing irrational about judging oneself to be psychologically stable and fully committed to the safe handling and ethical use of firearms—if, indeed, one is.[1]

JakeJ
JakeJ

I have always been skeptical of the political theory about individual gun possession being a defense against government tyranny. I regard that discussion as endless and irresolvable, devoid of practicality and a matter of belief rather than factual analysis.

What I do think lends itself well to fact-based analysis is gun ownership for other reasons in the United States. Those reasons are mainly hunting, personal protection, and sport shooting. We do have some very explicit laws about guns. The U.S. is not a "free fire" zone as your media portrays it to be. It is illegal for felons to own guns, and the penalties for committing a crime with a gun are much harsher than anything in Europe. There are many, many other gun regulations here.

Yet, with so many guns in private hands, it is impossible for all of these laws to be effectively enforced. To the extend they were to be enforced, the result would be to disarm the law abiding. The murder rate among criminals would not decline, but the law abiding would be more intimidated, especially in those parts of the U.S. that are more dangerous than most, i.e., the big central cities.

The vast majority of murders are between criminals who know each other, usually over drugs but sometimes over other squabbles. There are very few true "stranger murders" in America. The case we are talking about, one that's presented by one side as a murder and the other as self defense, is part of a very rare category of deaths or injuries by gun in this country.

As a practical matter, the mere likelihood that someone might own a gun tends to be a great deterrent to certain kinds of crime in America, i.e. home invasions and "strong arm" robberies. This is especially the case in more rural areas, especially the West, where the majority of the people outside of the very big cities are gun owners.

One of the reactions that many of us had to this particular killing is that someone would be stupid enough to commit residential burglaries in Montana. If I were a criminal, I would not want to practice my trade in the interior Western United States.

Under German Law
Under German Law

I have been following this discussion for some time , only to find that there are still comments that are of the opinion that a theft justifies murder. Nobody has the right to take someone 's life , if not there is a risk to life and limb . This tells me my common sense . For something there is finally insurance.

But we also have to thank the Americans , for the clue on our microwaves "that you simply put no living animals in the microwave or the coffee in "Coffee to Go" cups may be hot "coution hot content".
This has everything to do with common sense. Is there no longer in America?

My understanding your history
From my understanding, your ancestors have you allowed the possession of weapons in the Constitution, so that in the event to have a civil war enough men under arms , and not with any wild shoots neighbor around.
This right has been softened over time and abused and no longer corresponds to the basic idea of your ancestors . Enhanced over the years has led to much lobbying , we discuss such topics today.

Ich verfolge diese Diskussion schon seit einiger Zeit und muss feststellen, das es immer noch Kommentare gibt, die der Meinung sind, das ein Diebstahl einen Mord rechtfertigt. Niemand hat das Recht jemandem das Leben zu nehmen, wenn nicht eine Gefahr für Leib und Leben besteht. Das sagt mir mein gesunder Menschenverstand. Für sowas gibt es schliesslich versicherungen.

Aber wir haben euch Amerikanern ja auch zu verdanken, das auf unseren Mikrowellen steht "das man keine lebenden Tiere in die Mikrowelle packt oder das Kaffee in Coffee to Go cups heiß sein könnte.
Das hat alles mit gesundem Menschenverstand zu tun. Gibt es denn nicht mehr in Amerika?
----------
Mein Verständnis eurer Geschichte
Aus meinem Verständnis heraus haben eure Vorfahren euch das Besitzen von Waffen in der Verfassung erlaubt, damit im Falle eines Bürgerkrieg genügend Männer unter Waffen zu haben, und nicht damit jeder Nachbar wild um sich schießt.
Dieses Recht wurde im Laufe der Zeit aufgeweicht und missbraucht und entspricht nicht mehr dem Grundgedanken eurer Vorfahren. Das über die Jahr viel Lobbyarbeit dazu geführt hat, das wir solche Themen heute diskutieren.

DaveQ
DaveQ

German Law,
We have the right to own guns so that we can form our own, non-federal, non-government fighting forces in case any government gets out of hand. This is how we maintain our freedom. History tells us that all governments grow and take power and eventually culminate in to dictatorships. It happens every time. In some cases, it may take hundreds of years and in some cases, this happens quickly (Hitler/Germany). It's happening to us right now. Our Federal government is growing and adding more regulations, rules, and taxes. They are taking freedom from citizens. Under our constitution, the Federal government, by law, is only charged to do a few simple things; protect our borders and ensure commerce between the states. In this day and age, we are starting to see the government grab more and more power from the people and the states. It is our right to defend our freedom and eventually, we will have to and we will need our guns. Our founding fathers understood that this would happen because it always happens and they wanted to make sure that the people remained free from the opression of any Federal government.

There is a few other things you should understand about Montana. Germany can fit inside Montana with some room to spare and Montana has only ~ 1 million people where Germany has ~ 90 million people. Montana is mostly still wild and sparsley populated. It may take police a long time to answer a call. Also, many people don't even have a phone. Many of us still have to fend for ourselves. You cannot understand this until you experience it. If you break down out in the woods, you may never be found or it may be months/years before anyone crosses your path. Without a gun, you would not be at the top of the food chain here and a gun may be key to your survival. Whenever we hike, fish, camp, cut wood, or hunt, we take a gun. It's one of the things that's on the checklist along with 2 spare tires, warm clothes, food, etc.

I would think Germans would understand the right to bear arms a little more than most. If all your people had guns, Hitler might not have happened. Imagine if all those Jews had guns. Hitler took everyone's guns so the people could not stop him. It's usually one of the first thing a dictator will do. It's what our Federal Government is trying to do to us now. I hope this helps you understand but I suggest you come visit Montana to better understand. If you lived in Montana for a year or more, you would gain a total understanding.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

you come along with all this history stuff that got nothing to do with the killing of a teenage boy!

DaveQ
DaveQ

Yes it does and the German poster asked for answers and they were given. It's all relevant because many people use cases like this to limit our rights to bear arms. You know that just like you know that he was more than a "teenage boy".

summerof69
summerof69

What would you do, if someone would burglarize your house? This is an obvious matter of self-defense, it would be an obvious matter of self-defense in Germany, too.
pbakq8u

lce5464

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

this idiot history comparisons are racist and totally deplaced

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

this is vigilance from the very beginnning ,cause he was very frustrated ,having aparently been burglarized before .he took the right in his own hand .thats a n icecold crime

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

what the heck does hitler ,the jews etcetera to do with this case .please ,bring evidence to this case .

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

every upright person can own weapons ,why not .its only important, what you are doing with them ! get that!

DaveQ
DaveQ

German Law,
Common sense tells us that we cannot break in to other people's homes. Once a person ignores their common sense and does break in to or enter another person's home without permission, common sense does not apply. Survival is now all that matters since we cannot read the minds of intruders, and we usually don't have the opportunity to ask the criminal their intent, we should expect the worst.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

kaarma lured him inside the garage and then ruthlessly opened immediate fire. he had so many choices but kaarma bloodthirstily chose the deadbringing solution . the teen ager was unarmed and kaarma knew that .in that moment the 17 year old became a chanceless victim !

summerof69
summerof69

Not long ago an alleged rocker shot a policeman in Germany to death. The jury said that it was self-defense. http://www.morgenpost.de/vermischtes/article1815216/BGH-spricht-Rocker-nach-Toetung-von-Polizist-frei.html
The rocker had many choices, too, but opened ruthlessly the fire.

DaveQ
DaveQ

You have your mind made up. You will not admit that there's another side to the story. There is a reason this is national news. Two men walked in to another's home without permission in the dead of night, the home owner shot one man and the other man ran away. Leaving a garage door open is not luring. Leaving my window open at night is not luring. It's still illegal to enter. The 17 year old was not the victim, the home owner was and the 17 year old man did have a chance. Do you really think 17 year olds shouldn't be allowed to make any of their own decisions and when they do, they should not be accountable?

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

his garage is far away from being his house . it has to have an iron fire door and also blaze walls .so impssible for an intruder to reach his kins house. he could have installed an alarm system deterring the intruder . but that wasn' t his cruel plan!

JakeJ
JakeJ

You need to understand something very basic. The land area of Montana is 381,000 km squared; the land area of Germany is 350,000 km squared. Germany's population is 81 million; Montana's population is 1 million.

Similar numbers are common in the West. Wyoming is 257,000 km squared, with 575,000 people. Idaho is 216,000 km squared with 1.6 million people. North and South Dakota (together) is 383,000 km squared, with 1.5 million people. All services are spread thin, including police.

There is a long tradition of self reliance, including for personal security. In many areas, police can be many miles and hours away. Therefore, much of the West, even in its towns and small cities, retains a strong culture of personal responsibility and protection. This is not outdated.

It is admirable to declare the principle of respect for life. It very much exists in the Western United States. At the same time, we have little tolerance for crime and criminals, especially when it invades our homes.

There are more than 200 million guns in private possession in the United States. There are 600 accidental gun deaths per year, compared with 120,000 accidental deaths from other causes. About 11,500 murders are committed with guns each year, most of them among poor drug dealers and "gang bangers" in our large cities. Another 19,000 people commit suicide with a gun each year, yet the American rate of suicide is much lower than many other countries, including European societies with much stricter gun control than ours.

Please do not accept the lurid and exaggerated picture being drawn in your media. The United States in general, and the West in particular, is open, friendly, civilized, welcoming, and helpful. We have guns here but we are not obsessed with them. Come on over and visit. Have a look around. You'll see.

Under German Law
Under German Law

@jake
Thanks for inviting me to the your country. Maybe one day i will visit the states.
I view a lot of american´s News and read Newspaper from the states. And since one year i follow on Youtube two american witch have left the states to live in germany. I wanted to know their motivations and the reasons I looked up to understand.

JakeJ
JakeJ

I have lived on both coasts and in the Midwest, and have traveled all 50 states and 25 countries. If you visit the U.S., I suggest going to the places that are the least similar to anything in Europe. This would essentially be the Western United States outside of the cities. Get a car, and just drive around: Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, California.

Visit in the summer. Don't feel the need to see every national park. The Grand Canyon is a "must," but the rest (while beautiful) don't have to all be seen. What you most should do is just drive, off of the Interstates (two-lane roads), to experience the vastness of our landscape.

And be sure to go to a rodeo. For schedules, go to prorodeo.com. There is nothing more Western, more American, and more fun than a rodeo.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

look at the byron smith case in minnnesota and you can go further with your blah,blah,blah. its about a murder case not about ideologies ,understand!?

JakeJ
JakeJ

What's your point? That in a country of 320 million people, there are bad actors?

summerof69
summerof69

It is no murder, even in Germany, if you are defending your possessions. You have the right to do whatever it takes to defend your possession in such cases. If you do it with a "black-buyed" gun, you will be prosecuted because of illegal possession of a gun.

Vielfrass
Vielfrass

"It is no murder, even in Germany, if you are defending your possessions."

Really, Bryan Adams?

I am guessing that knowledge of Strafrecht is not your stength.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

again see the byron smith case and your mind comes clear! god bless diren !

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

you with your funny microwave comparison are you kidding with the readers ,or what !we are discussing about the killing of a 17 year old teenage boy! understand?

summerof69
summerof69

Dein "gesunder Menschenverstand" gilt auch in Deutschland nicht. Auch hier ist es Notwehr, sein Hab und Gut auch mit Waffengewalt zu verteidigen. So gibt es Beispiele, bei denen Tankstellenpächter illegal Waffen zur Verteidigung derer Kasse gekauft haben, beim nächsten Überfall dem flüchtenden Täter in den Rücken geschossen haben und dann lediglich wegen "illegalem Besitz einer Waffe" verurteilt wurden. In Deutschland gilt der Grundsatz "Das Recht muss nicht dem Unrecht weichen", und das darf man auch selbst durchsetzen, wenn die Staatsgewalt nicht dazu in der Lage ist.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notwehr#Erforderlichkeit_der_Notwehrhandlung

The commentor is not reviewing the real situation in Germany. It is also in Germany allowed to use a gun against burglars or other criminals. In the opposite to the US the law referring weapons is much more restrictive. Nonetheless it is possible to buy firearms in Germany legally in many situations. It is legal to use weapons in danger of life and to defend the property.

It is illegal to burglarize the garages of others or even to go into locked up rooms. And no one is obliged to have a insurance because of burglary. The turkish-originated German made the first mistake, played and lost.

Under German Law
Under German Law

That it does not exist in Germany a similar law situation, I never claimed. . I think this is basically a stupid act. Killing someone without to be in mortal danger.

das es in Deutschland nicht eine ähnliche Gesetzeslage gibt, habe ich nie behauptet. . Ich finde das ist grundsätzlich eine dumme Handlung. Jemanden zu töten ohne selbst in Lebensgefahr zu sein.

Henk
Henk

Diren D. was a turkish exchange-student ( Yes, he is not german. Turkish newspapers call him turkish, he lived in a turkish community, was very proud of being turkish and was buried in Turkey). So instead of showing german flags please show turkish ones. He would have loved that. Probably he did not learn "Garage-Hopping" from native montanans, because it is a common behaviour of turkish kids in germany. There is a 2-class justice. Immigrants are named "+Deutsche" which means Plus-Germans or Superior-Germans.
But Immigrant kids are leading in crime-statistics. In Cologne police said, 80% of raping is commited by the minority of turkish-arab kids. Usually crimes committed by them are seen as misdemeanor while the same commited by an native german is a felony. So these youngsters are encouraged to go on. They know perfectly well there will be no consequences for them. So as Missoulians do not feel sorry or guilty in any way. Germans respect your culture and are even jealous about your right of denfensing your property and family.

Vielfrass
Vielfrass

You vote for the NPD, oder?

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

you are such a racist . my eyes are popping out reading your infamous comment

JakeJ
JakeJ

Henk, I completely understand what you wrote, and salute you for your candor and truthfulness. I can't feel sorry or guilty, but I can't feel "good" about it either. This was a needless death. The youth should have been made to understand that he was living in a well-armed community that does not appreciate crime or criminals.

I have traveled all over Europe. Some Americans fear anti-Americanism and try to conceal their nationality, and will apologize for it. Me, I wore a cowboy hat and cowboy boots on my last trip, and was warmly greeted almost everywhere -- including central Paris. You're absolutely right about a lot of Europeans envying our freedom, and of course our wide open spaces.

I enjoy Europe very much, but I really, really LOVE living here. To be an American is to be very, very lucky.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

henk you are the racist american I could not believe existing!

Jacko22
Jacko22

When I was in Germany the Turks committed nearly all crime. They were a mean little bunch that liked to gang up on people. They all carried knives and liked to stab people. Turks are the garbage of Europe and any real German will tell you that.

Hamburg449
Hamburg449

back to the basics, vivacious mountaineers.
in every civilized nation with a functional legal system such behaviour is no test of courage. it is theft by housebreaking. in this unique criminal offence the perpetrator may be indicated as repeat offender. does anybody know if his lawyer asked german authorities to disclose his potentially criminal record in Hamburg? not a full proof of exoneration,of course, but an incitement at the jury, to consider the deliberate intentions of the perpetrator.
what about the ecuadorian guy and his complicity, respectively his criminal liability?
lads & lassies, wherever you go, do not forget: stay alert, stay alive. -
Greetz from Hamburg, Germany

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

outrageag your hate comment shame on you!

JakeJ
JakeJ

Viele danke, Hamburg449! It's great to know that there are Germans with common sense. I hope you will visit us someday. You will find the American West to be spacious beyond your imagination, and the people to be friendly, outgoing, welcoming. We have our problems, just as any huge country with 320 million people does. But I think you would greatly enjoy yourself here. Do not be too quick to believe the horror stories your media might feed you.

AL KIPF
AL KIPF

With all the boo hoo hoo'ing, it's about time someone came clean with what the punk was doing trespassing to begin with. The kid paid the ultimate price for the consequences of poor decision making. RIP

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

self justice i call it look at the minnesota Smith case and you know what awaits kaarma!

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

My, what a tangled web we weave when we practice (law) to deceive. I don't believe I've read more changes and twisted nuances then from this defense attorney. The original interviews indicated they admitted they created a trap with bait. Now the purse has moved, the number of burglaries has increased and now "they" (the boys) were headed to the passage door to enter the kitchen to attack them (so Kaarma went out the front door to do what, an end run while he left his wife and child behind)? The garage door was only open for ventilation, of pot smoke. They had just come from the jacuzzi too. Nice and relaxed I'm sure.

http://www.kpax.com/news/lawyer-kaarma-did-not-bait-17-year-old-intruder/

BJackson
BJackson

DNLTM, as there is nothing you can say that will change the outcome of this situation, why don't you just do like the rest of us, let it lie and wait until the court adjudicates this case, you are obsessed my friend and you are not making any difference in the outcome.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Hardly obsessed. Disgusted would be a better definition. I detest liars, regardless of their reasoning or justification for it. Those involved in "justice" should be held accountable to conduct themselves at a higher level of professionalism. I do not see that occurring in this case.

Faxnlogicovremotnlhystria
Faxnlogicovremotnlhystria

Montanaspecialed,
This has about as much to do with the NRA as it does with NORML
It's Paul Ryan's job to defend his client that is paying him hundreds of dollars an hour. You understand how that works?

Democide
Democide

People should get shot for going in people's garages late at night.I have no problem putting a bullet in someone's head if they are in my garage late at night.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

We're quite impressed by the tough girl talk.

Buldog
Buldog

@ democide,
I just hope that the Missoula police, the Sheriff's office and the FBI are watching you, you are a time bomb just wanting to kill someone and then ask questions later.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

totally agree good mind

Gray
Gray

I understand you have no problem serving life.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

there is no legal justification for your bloodthirsty state of mind ,honey!

caverpilot
caverpilot

Point of order: Marijuana has NOTHING to do with this case, period. Whether or not they were high has NOTHING to do with their actions. It's not Meth, it's not PCP. Blood tests for marijuana cannot prove or disprove whether he was high at the time of the shooting, and are therefore a waste of time. I would hope the prosecutors consider SCIENCE in their evaluation! Whether or not the shooting was justified, the kid should have not been trespassing!

Newjunky
Newjunky

The prosecutor (you voted for), let an admitted thief, trespasser & witness leave this country. Interesting that the prosecutor elected to charge the homeowner. This admitted thief, trespasser will not be able to witness against this man unless of course you and our taxes bring him back. Even with that he can make some stands in his own country and refuse to return. Thieves cost you and me every day in higher insurance premiums. I have been robbed from a locked garage more than I can count. The last two times the loss was over $10,000.00. I worked very hard, I worked holidays, I worked overtime so that I could have some conveniences. A thief takes all that you sacrificed for and keeps it. He/She think that they are more entitled to it than you. They never stop at one theft. The law does not or cannot keep up with the numbers of thefts. They typically downplay a theft. The Police also tell you to give them the serial number off the product(s) that were stolen. I did not know that was the rule. I had no serial numbers. The second time. I had the serial numbers and still nothing. If thieves knew all households had guns and will use them, well the thief/trespasser would think twice whether the item they feel entitled to is worth their life.

Newjunky
Newjunky

The prosecutor (you voted for), let an admitted thief, trespasser & witness leave this country. Interesting that the prosecutor elected to charge the homeowner. This admitted thief, trespasser will not be able to witness against this man unless of course you and our taxes bring him back. Even with that he can make some stands in his own country and refuse to return. Thieves cost you and me every day in higher insurance premiums. I have been robbed from a locked garage more than I can count. The last two times the loss was over $10,000.00. I worked very hard, I worked holidays, I worked overtime so that I could have some conveniences. A thief takes all that you sacrificed for and keeps it. He/She think that they are more entitled to it than you. They never stop at one theft. The law does not carry they tell you to give them the serial number off the product that was stolen. I did not know that was the rule. I had no serial numbers. The second time. I had serial numbers and still nothing. If thieves knew all households had guns and will use them well than they would think twice whether the item they feel entitled to is worth their life.

74griz
74griz

I can't believe they let that Equadoran exchange student go back to Equador. Why didn't they charge him and take his passport. So much for the Missoula County Prosecutors Office. Remember this on election day.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

he went back ,cauze hr was disgusted by kaarma and his ilk,you ignorant!

madtaxpayer
madtaxpayer

gee, does anyone feel sorry for the kid now? I don't. as many stated above. stay out of people's garages! Also in previous posts I noticed many of you stating he had no children to protect in his home, do ya feel stupid now for assuming???? A child and a wife, in my opinion he did exactly what anyone protecting their home and family should do!!! NOT GUILTY!

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

You haven't read the statements and charging documents, have you? Comprehension problems? Folks getting high aren't usually taking care of their kid all that well, are they? Is this your method of raising children, getting high while they sleep? For whatever it's worth, I haven't found any comments suggesting there wasn't a baby in the house. The baby is in the picture of them together.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Sure, I still do. You never did and your diatribe is proof. Please stop repeating "stay out of people's garages." The bad guys out there aren't reading your posts. Normal people are and your rants are exhausting. The comments are also posted below, not above.

Gray
Gray

And you, don't you feel uncomfortable defending the probable drug dealer with the serious anger issues?

Sauerkraut
Sauerkraut

Dear people of missoula, I and most of the German appreciate your country very much. There is absolutely no reason for condolences, German flags or apology. We are the ones who need to apologize to you because the most German was taught to respect foreign ownership -.The shoot guy was a turkishguy by heart and head.. only with a German identity card. For the record ..short of any violent death is unfortunate but in this case it met a burglar and someone who was accustomed not to adapt to other cultures or respect them not even the german where he lives. Dont let them take your freedom do not make you ridiculous puppets like it happens right here in Germany and here in Europe. Defend yourself against everything that will not adopt and accept your country. Thank you very much.

Roger
Roger

And a "thank you" to you too sir, for your kind comment.

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

And thanks for showing us prejudice and xenophobia exists with a minority in Germany even today.

Gray
Gray

For the record: That guy, with his xenophobic and violent attitude, is NOT representative for Germany.

german observer
german observer

What, exactly, is "xenophobic" and "violent" about Sauerkraut's "attitude"?
You might want to re-read some previous articles on the subject like http://missoulian.com/news/local/student-shot-in-grant-creek-garage-remembered-as-generous-soccer/article_79c333b2-cf3c-11e3-8ce9-0019bb2963f4.html
or http://missoulian.com/news/local/missoula-shooting-victim-was-exchange-student-at-big-sky-high/article_1807a98c-ceec-11e3-8338-001a4bcf887a.html
According to those articles, Mr Dede was "proud of his Turkish culture" or his host parents speaking of "Dede’s Turkish culture, which the teenager identified with more strongly than the German culture he was raised in". Also, Mr Dede is now buried in Bodrum, Turkey - NOT in Germany.

JakeJ
JakeJ

Richtig!

To Americans here who want to get all high and mighty, I suggest visiting Germany sometime and talking with people. You'll find Germans to commonly be quite outward-looking, aware of the rest of the world, and, quite frankly, to often be more aware and familiar with the details of American civic and political issues than many Americans are.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

totally right!

dsrobinsMT
dsrobinsMT

Sauerkraut is a good example of the bigotry and racism that many Germans still address towards their Turkish neighbors who have opted to make Germany their homeland. Don't think that Daren Dede's life growing up in Germany was necessarily easy given all of the racist attitudes that still exist there despite the destruction of Hitler's Germany.

JakeJ
JakeJ

Sauerkraut is telling the truth. Good for him. If I could meet him, the steak dinner would be on me.

JakeJ
JakeJ

I appreciate your comment.

I am of German descent and have visited Germany several times. I have a great regard for your country, and was disbelieving that a German exchange student would act as this "victim" did, until I researched his background. When I saw that he is not German, I immediately understood and sympathized.

Please tell anyone you know that Germans are always welcome in this country. So are Turks, by the way. What we do NOT welcome, especially in the West, is criminals. Montana alone is about the same land area as Germany, but with only 1 million people. Police and other services are spread very thinly, so self-reliance is a very strong tradition, and that includes self defense.

I have met many Germans on vacation in the U.S., and have always welcomed them warmly. What happened to this exchange student is unfortunate, but just as he was not representative of you, the way he died is not representative of us. The picture painted in the media about guns in America is highly misleading.

On the whole, this is a friendly, peaceful, welcoming, and very scenic country. We love foreign visitors, and most people here are very helpful. This is especially true in sparsely populated places in the wide open West. I could tell you many stories of being helped by complete strangers, and of myself helping complete strangers, on my travels in "America the Beautiful."

Please do not be afraid to come here.

Gray
Gray

From other comments here, and reporting, i'm under the impression illegal garage hopping is quite representative for Montana teenagers. Since it's not known to be a problem in Germany, it's obvious where Dede learned this. It was just bad luck he was shot, and not one of your kids. Sorry, but your fingerpointing is hypocritical.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

god bless the igrorant for they shall inherit the earth . it was a set up ! he didnt fear him .he went for diren to murder him!

JakeJ
JakeJ

I doubt that so-called "garage hopping" is "quite representative" of Montana's teenagers.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

calling his murder ,bad luck , is so cynical i could vomit . he was set up . kaarma saw him on his babyfon ,unarmed and took his ugliest weapon ,the surely deadbringing shotgun and killed him from the garage entrance door ,not giving him the slightest chance for escape!

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

u confound the issue its not self defence its vigilance he murdered him !

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

pure racism !

uncle ted
uncle ted

Don't forget that this wasn't the only garage that they were stealing from. They must have had bait purses out as well. Otherwise why would such a sweet young man be doing such a thing. I'm just glad that no one innocent got hurt. And really people, marijuana? You really think that's the culprit? Get real. And since most of you seem so willing to let strangers into your home to take those things that you work your tail off for please post your address. My TV is on the brink and I'm looking for one. Of course I'll do it while you're all in bed. You won't even know I'm there. Any takers?

wildmtn
wildmtn

If they had broken into the home, we would not even be having this discussion. The elderly man (Corvallis I think) that shot his intruder was justified and no charges were filed. This is a completely different situation. A simple lock would have saved all of this mess. In my youth (the 60's in Missoula) "hopping" referred to trying the doors (usually of cars) until you find one open then rifling around for cigs, beer or change. If the car was locked, they simply moved on and it was something punks with no car of their own did when they were bored around our neighborhood (Westside). I bet they still do it today. Glad my Dad was not the kind of man who, even though he was well-armed, would kill to protect his cigarettes. He just simply locked the car. I guess we all have to ask ourselves, what kind of a person am I?

Love's Life
Love's Life

The other kid should have been sent home he is a juvenile I will assume. He is traumatized for life I am sure. This is a lesson I bet he will never forget. I see the attorney isn't talking about the drugs that the couple had stolen from them. I know it is his job to paint a pretty picture of his client but I think they are going to find that the law and the jury will see things differently. You want to say you are in fear for your life and safety of your family yet you leave the safety of your (I will assume) locked home and your baby alone so you can go outside without calling police first to blindly shoot into your garage. Yah I think I would have stayed with my baby if I was in such fear of the safety of my family and home. Especially since he had days to plan all this out.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

bravo your mind is sharp and crystal clear !

ECS
ECS

The evidence overwhelmingly confirms that as a whole, commenters on this site led lily-white teen years in Lake Wobegon, and later as adults raised their own above-average teens who stayed home evenings reading poetry. Come on, show us your beautiful family Christmas cards with your perfect teens lined up by the fireplace in their starched white shirts, scholastic awards lining the mantel. It's so remarkable, that this site as actually become THE online source for good parenting!

Roger
Roger

Sure, teens sometimes do stupid things, but that usually does not include housebreaking, at least back when I was in school. Some engage in drinking, partying, and driving recklessly, but not home invasion. That's asking for real trouble.

Skeptical
Skeptical

Does attaching a title such 'garage hopping' make it any less a crime? It is still trespassing to enter someone's home or property without permission. It isn't an acceptable teenage activity in my household. My garage and vehicles have been 'hopped' and we have experienced theft. Just because it may have been a young person 'hopping' around the neighborhood, that doesn't mean we didn't feel violated and angry because of the thefts. A crime was still committed, whether the trespasser considered it to be 'garage hopping' or called it something else. While I would never shoot anyone for being in my garage, I don't find the teens to be engaging in blameless fun. I consider trespassing a crime, and would have called 9-1-1.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Lock your garage. We live in different times than when we were youths. It's sad, but it's as simple as that.

Go Cats Go
Go Cats Go

DoNotLieToMe, was the "open" garage even an issue? The boys were going around to others, this one had been broken into before, yes it was unlocked and open a bit this time but from the sounds of it that wasn't going to stop these boys.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

"Open a bit"? That's rich. Yep, five and a half feet bit. Have you measured a garaged door opening? Also, are you certain the deceased didn't have a prior "connection" to the shooter? Considering he was his neighbor of course.

DaveQ
DaveQ

DoNotLieToMe, pelase enlighten us to what has changed and why. Montana's population hasn't really changed much. It has always been illegal to enter another person's home without permission. Montanans have always had guns. We always went camping for our vacations and left the doors unlocked at home and we left the keys in the car. People repected private property. What has changed in the last 30 years? Could it be that someone is telling our children nothing bad will come if they break in to people's homes or take their property? Could someone be telling our children the consequences are so minimal for criminals that it's worth the risk? Could someone be telling our children that if you don't feel like earning something yourself, you are entitled to someone elses earnings. I think what has changed is these kids don't have the fear of God in them and parents these days don't have a moral compass to pass down to their children. Sad indeed.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

What has changed you ask? Morals and ethics, or simply the lack thereof. I believe it's a generation issue and the last two, possibly three lost their way, directly due to their parents. Many try to blame politics for the lack of a better scapegoat, but the main damage done to the U.S. economy is the fault of greedy business owners that sent most manufacturing jobs to other countries. Parents that teach their children by example to sponge off the government has become another problem, that won't fix itself or go away. It also didn't start with our current administration. Technology has played it's fair share of disabling the youth of today, along with the "real life" video games that make it fun to steal, use drugs and kill people. Again, the parents have allowed this to happen and should bear the blame.

Lawman
Lawman

While this matter is being tried in the court of public opinion on hearsay, speculation and political agendas, the Missoula Police Department and Sheriff’s Office should be working with the school district to present a crime prevention program that incorporates applicable lessons learned from this incident and hopefully prevent any repeats.

I would also recommend an orientation program specifically designed for foreign exchange students that would include a basic overview of common Montana traffic and criminal laws. This may actually be a role for the Attorney General's Office to design and implement a statewide program.

Skimo1
Skimo1

I would think that exchange students from other countries should already know that entering another person's property and stealing their possessions is against the law in the US or any other country.

YBChat
YBChat

Kaarma's defense attorney clearly has his work cut out for him. Send the murderer (and his wife as accomplice) to jail.

Newjunky
Newjunky

Most of all the comments I see are pro prosecutor, I placed a comment that was not in agreement with the prosecutor, yet it is not published. Missoulian are you screening your comments to slant with yellow journalism?

Wolf-PAC
Wolf-PAC

"Most of all the comments I see are pro prosecuter,"

I'm not sure what comment section you're reading but your comment doesn't reflect reality.

Wolf-PAC
Wolf-PAC

And if it were true, could you believe that most people actually side with the prosecutor in this case?

Newjunky
Newjunky

No I don't believe that most people would pledge allegiance to a thief and trespasser. I believe that people have a right to protect their family and their belongings. Anyone that enters into someone home, garage, building that they do not know is up to no good. You think it would have been better to feed him cookies and tea? He is dead because he broke the law. I am sorry that he is dead but he entered into this garage along with several other garages. He should have stayed on the right side of the law

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

Are you really sure there are no options that lie between "serving cookies and tea" and shooting him dead?

MontanaNative1ed7
MontanaNative1ed7

The NRA is employing a lot of Missoula lawyers. Paul Ryan must enjoy being coached by the NRA.

Kaarma has a lot of pot. His weed and pipes had been stolen before. Drug theft. Maybe a felony murder charge will be in order when the blood tests come back.

Ryan is dancing for the NRA, as they want him to perform for their money.

BJackson
BJackson

Where does it say that Ryan is working for or belongs to the NRA?


Also, deliberate homicide is already a felony charge, we have not charge of "Murder" in the state of Montana, but he is charge with the equivalent charge already, deliberate homicide, can carry up to the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole.


I would love to see your evidence on your claim that the NRA is employing a lot of Missoula Attorneys? Care to share?

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

Paul Ryan is not working for the NRA, he's working for his client. That's what he does and I respect him for it. Everyone, no matter whether some readers have predetermined his guilt, deserves a competent and vigorous defense in an American courtroom.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Yep, not "working for the NRA," but sure as heck "funded by the NRA." That team of lawyers certainly isn't volunteering their time for Kaarma out of the goodness in their hearts.

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

DoNotLie, where is your source that the NRA has paid for Kaarma's defense? Is Kaarma an NRA member? And how do you know lawyers aren't volunteering time? Lots of lawyers volunteer time, myself included. This is a case that may result in the first jury test of the so-called "castle doctrine." It would be professionally interesting for any lawyer that specializes in criminal defense. The fact is you don't know any more about this defendant's financial resources, that you know about this case which is limited to the few details published in the media or filed in court. There is and will be piles of evidence, investigative reports etc. which will not be privy to the public, unless introduced at trial. You are just another poison poster, hiding behind an alias, who takes potshots at whoever you desire. It used to be said in journalism circles that editorial writers were like the people sent out on the battlefield after the fight to shoot the wounded. I think that statement applies to a lot of anonymous critics here, no matter which side they come down on.

BJackson
BJackson

DNLTM, please provide proof that the attorneys on this case are "Funded by the NRA" what you are posting is pure, unadulterated speculation., nobody has said they are volunteering, where are you coming up with this stuff?

BJackson
BJackson

Well stated Alan, Well stated.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Contact their legal department and ask them yourself: (800) 392-8683

Please pose this question: "Is the NRA providing legal council for Kaarma's defense case in Missoula Montana?

Also, there are no volunteers on Kaarma's legal team. Let me know if you need a phone number to confirm this.

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

Do not lie--I'll let you make your own calls. I don't have to do your homework for you.

JakeJ
JakeJ

So he's a murderer because he smokes pot?

Citizen1
Citizen1

A mason jar full of pot is a lot, enough to make you paranoid. Credit cards in the garage sounds false, nobody does that.

JakeJ
JakeJ

It certainly would be if you smoked it all at once!

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

wonderful !thanks for this remark!

Faxnlogicovremotnlhystria
Faxnlogicovremotnlhystria

A few things don't add up.
1) if the garage was so dark how was he able to see a bait purse?
2) who puts their credit cards in the garage? Their phone? Only when those items are in my pocket and I'm in the garage are they in the garage.

Go Cats Go
Go Cats Go

1) Evidence that it's not a "bait" purse. If you only need your purse when you go out why does it need to leave the garage?
2) Same as number 1

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Didn't read that they admitted to leaving it out there as bait huh? Even "documenting the contents" for proof later. I don't believe the story being told by Ryan is accurate, or truthful and there is some conflicting evidence about the girlfriend being anywhere near Dede after he was shot, let alone comforting him. They must have sequestered the jury the day after the incident to prevent any bias.

Gray
Gray

Someone who is in real "fear and terror" doesn't totally unececessarily expose himself to even more danger by going out into the dark after unknown offenders who may be armed or not. He calls the police instead, if he doesn't actually freeze in panic or hide under his bed! And anyway, it's known by now that Kaarma defended his valuable stash of marijuana, not his family. The defence desperately tries to divert attention from that, but who do they want to fool?

walter12_jr
walter12_jr

I don't see why this so called Ecuanadorian kid isn't deported back to the United States to face justice for his felonious crimes.

Roger
Roger

I was thinking the same thing - if the Ecuadorean government has any decency it would send the miscreant back to face justice.

Wolf-PAC
Wolf-PAC

"Felonious crimes"? The only felony in this whole story is one of deliberate homicide. Where's your evidence the Ecuadorian kid was even in the garage? Do you want to send the scores of other self-admitted garage hoppers at Big-Sky to prison? Or are you an old curmudgeon with an immoveable, unchangeable ideology of gun-worship?

Skimo1
Skimo1

Rather than sending the "garage hoppers" (aka thieves) to prison, we could send them to your home to steal from your garage. Does that work for you?

dsrobinsMT
dsrobinsMT

Uh, Walter, most countries don't deport their own citizens. I think you meant to use the verb extradite, which must first be requested by the United States, and which Ecuador would have the perfect right to refuse. Also, entering a wide open garage is not a felony, at worst it's a misdemeanor. In America, we're not supposed to kill people for misdemeanors.

Frizz
Frizz

Dude admits to breaking the law and then is aloud to flee to Ecuador. MPD is completely incompetent. What would happen in Ecuador?

Wolf-PAC
Wolf-PAC

What are you talking about?? He didn't "flee" anywhere. He went back to his family after being traumatized by the incident.

Said "Dude", along with dozens of others from Big-Sky, admit to "garage hopping". Maybe we should also round up all the Halloween egg-throwers from years past and prosecute them for felony vandalism?

ReturnoftheNative
ReturnoftheNative

In a previous story Kaarma and his girlfriend were said to leave the garage door open because they smoked in the garage. Now that we know what they were smoking I wonder if they kept their stash in the garage.

Oh, and the couple were in such "fear and terror" that they hung out in the garage after their trap was set. Uh huh. Sure.

I also think that a mason jar full of pot is a lot for personal consumption. No wonder Kasrma was paranoid.

JakeJ
JakeJ

Mason jars come in different sizes.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

And we expect you have several, full of pot.

JakeJ
JakeJ

The only thing in my mason jars is coffee.

huckleberryhaven
huckleberryhaven

Lies from the Defense Attorney. No surprise there. "Ryan denied Kaarma lured anyone into his garage and said he left the door open to air it out after he and Pflager had been smoking cigarettes."

doc
doc

Hmmmmmmm. Seems like I remember a Saudi exchange student at the UM was allowed to skip out after rape/assault charges loomed. Oh, probably just a coincidence.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

you are trying to be a racist who mixes diren with other cases with muslims .but you won't succed. god bless diren

Democide
Democide

Why don't other countries stop sending their kids here if they are here to commit crimes?Then they won't get shot.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Stir, stir.

Gray
Gray

Why don't US teenagers stop accustoming exchange students to illegal "dares" like garage hopping? That their kids will learn criminal behaviour is certainly NOT what foreign parents expect when they send them to your country.

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

A minority of juveniles engage in thrill crimes everywhere. It is not strictly a US phenomenon. It is not new, either. Juvenile thrill crimes go way back, car hoping today is like tipping outhouses or cows in yesteryear. Trespass, property destruction, theft.

Gray
Gray

I know trespassing, graffity and some vandalism are teenage "thrill crimes" here. Never heard of widespread garage hopping, though, that seems to be a US trend that hasn't crossed the atlantic yet.

Skimo1
Skimo1

The only two teenagers involved in this case were a German national and an Ecuadorian national. Sounds to me like they learned their thieving ways at home and brought them to the US. But no, they must have been good kids who were forced into illegal activity by the corrupting influences of evil American teenagers. Right?

Gray
Gray

Garage hopping is a new trend in the US, not in Germany. The vast majority of offenders are US teens. Dede just followed their bad example.

zauberzahn
zauberzahn

those are common pranks in missoula ,kids and the adults are aware of it and often leave some beer cans for them.

JakeJ
JakeJ

When I was a kid, we left sugar cubes for Santa's reindeer on Christmas Eve, but I am not aware of any Montana custom of leaving beer for teenaged burglars.

Miss Muralist 12
Miss Muralist 12

Why do we know nothing about the shooter and his heinous wife? More unemployed layabouts that epitomize Missoula?

huckleberryhaven
huckleberryhaven

Interesting read that the Missoulian has yet to report........ This gives a small insight into Kaarma's state of mind the evening leading up to the murder.

_____________________________________________________

A resident in the Grand Creek neighborhood says on Saturday - just hours before the shooting - says she was heading home on Lower Prospect Drive when she came upon a pickup truck going about 10 mph in a 25 mph speed - adding the driver than slowed down to no more than 5 mph.

The woman says when the road eventually widened; she took her chance to pass the vehicle. And what happened next was nothing she could have imagined happening in her neighborhood. The woman says as she went to pass, the pickup swerved in front of her, and forced her along the curb. That's when she says the man got out of the car.

She said the man was extremely angry and started yelling profanity at her and as he got closer and closer to her car he became more upset. She said the man appeared to be manic and that she immediately noticed what she describes as white foam on the edges of his mouth.

As the situation further escalated, she said she became frightened that he might throw a punch at her through the window. She told the man she was going to report him to police and she tried to backup. He then pulled out in front of her and continued up the hill going less than 5 mph.

Later that night, when she saw emergency vehicles in her neighborhood she called 911 suspecting that the same man who confronted her, may somehow have been involved in the second incident.

It wasn't until she saw Markus Kaarma's picture as the suspect in Darin Dede's death that she had a name to the face.

Go Cats Go
Go Cats Go

source?

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

It was on KECI's website acouple of days ago.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

"Tick, tick, tick, tick." She's lucky is all I can say at this point. He was a time bomb, ready to explode hours earlier. Likely days earlier. Seemingly all over pot and their own stupidity.

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

Gee! I hope she isn't too harsh on herself knowing that if she had been more prompt in reporting this incident a larger tragedy could have been averted.

Gray
Gray

Kaarma allegedly works for the state Forrest and Conservation Dept and moved to Missoula because of that job.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Did. They aren't too keen on potheads and murders under their employ. Go figure?

Gray
Gray

Not surprised about that.

jus wundrin
jus wundrin

Too bizarre.

Like the saddi student accused of rape, the ecuadorian gets off scott free. Welcome to the progressive states of America, where the America citizen is 2nd class.

Kojack
Kojack

Young or old he was being a thief. Hopping? is that legal? Come on Missoulian stop making a thief look like a ok guy. Had this thief not been doing this crime of his the other guy would not be heading to prison.

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

The Missoulian did not make up the word "garage hopping." Like "car hopping" it is a term widely used by law enforcement, and teens. It is not a lesser crime. Unauthorized entrance into an "occupied structure" to commit a crime is burglary. If someone under 18 does it, it's a matter for youth court. The penalty scheme, though is much different than with an adult. A youth court judge (in Montana any district court judge is also a youth court judge) makes a determination based on either an admission or conviction at trial for any crime that would be a crime if done by an adult, that the youth is "delinquent." The judge then can order any disposition from a wide range of choices available.

GaryTinkSanders
GaryTinkSanders

So Missoula welcomed 2 foreign exchange students into our community, seems pretty benign, but both foreign students turn into criminals, I am perplexed as to where the problem really is. Is the problem with the student vetting process, the local students or the host families, I doubt the problem is in the host families because I know several families that have sponsored numerous exchange students to only develop life long friendships. If I was a parent of a Big Sky student I would be having a talk with my kids, heck I have already had a talk with my youngest and he understands that sort of behavior will not be tolerated, I will discipline my own kids rather than have them get beat up arrested or even worse killed because they done something stupid. Parents I urge you to talk to your kids to keep this from happening again, kids need to understand there are consequences to their actions.

huckleberryhaven
huckleberryhaven

At Big Sky? You are really naïve enough to think this new trend 'garage hopping' is designated just towards the kids at Big Sky? How about ALL teens including the other High Schools in the area. Shoot, so much of it is going on right now, you have no idea. Just in this case, the homeowner felt threatened ONLY by his drug stash being tampered with and was high on drugs at the time, he became trigger happy and will pay for it in jail.

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

This is the third time that you have chastised someone in this thread for "naivete" regarding this stupid game . You are also the third, I'm assuming, adult to report familiar knowledge of this on-going practice on these threads in a somewhat cavalier, shrugging your shoulders, "kids will be kids" manner. Did any of you report this to the authorities? Advise the schools of this practice? Counsel individuals you knew who were engaged in this practice as to the inherent danger? If not, jump down off that high horse, tie it to the hitchin' post, and get some ground time. Your seeming inaction in alerting the public makes you, technically, complicit in this tragedy.

Aerindel
Aerindel

I think there may be less of it going on after this, whatever happens to Karma I hope me managed to send a message missoula teens. Nothing in anyone else garage is worth getting shot for.

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

As well as the message that "it's not acceptable to kill someone that took your pot."

GaryTinkSanders
GaryTinkSanders

Did I say Big Sky was the only school that had this problem going on? No I didn't, I spoke to the readers urging the readers to talk to their kids. I may be naive when it comes to the criminal trends of students but I was raised with love and discipline, the only shoulder shrugging that went on when I was a kid was me when that willow went across my backside. I raised my kids with boundaries and discipline, not excusing bad behavior. Since you pontificate why the kid got shot, have you ever thought for one minute he might not have got shot if he wasn't in somebody else's garage. Hmmm

Gray
Gray

Sure a good idea. One tragedy is already one too many!

Alan H Johnson
Alan H Johnson

You say "both' like there were only two foreign students in Missoula.. Missoula welcomes a great many foreign students each year just as many Missoula students are welcomed in other countries to spend a high school year. The vast majority enjoy their time here and don't get into any trouble. Don't judge all foreign students. As someone familiar with youth court I can tell you that almost all accused of crimes there are home grown.

GaryTinkSanders
GaryTinkSanders

Did you read the story Al? Both students that were in the garage were foreign exchange students, don't let your inept comprehension skills or your desire to try to rant at me for urging parents to educate and discipline their children for their own benefit override good sense. Please Al I have very little time to spend online and you want to waste it with me having to set the record straight for you again. At no time have or did I insinuate that Missoula had only two foreign exchange students in our community.

AaronJL
AaronJL

Well well well, what have we here, they were "Garage Hopping", and they also learned it from the other students,(so what are they teaching at big sky highschool then?) maybe all the kids at big sky should be arrested and charged as an accessory to burglary, and then murder, because they showed these Innocent Kids how to be criminals. Because it wasn't their fault they were in the garage, it was the home owners, and the students, sooo judging by what that young man from Ecuador was telling us, is that, it is everyone elses fault for teaching them.

Obviously everyone else is to blame for these poor innocent baby children being victimized by their peers, and the whole gun culture of Montana. If it wasn't for everyone else teaching these poor foriegn exchange students how to be criminals, they would have been Angels, and if it were not for the Evil gun culture, this poor innocent baby child would never have been harmed by the big bad evil gun culture in America.

Gray
Gray

i would have expected exchange students to be extra careful not to violate the laws of their host country. Sad to see they're just the same as their US peers. But no matter if German or Missoulian, no kid deserves to be shot for a dare, even if illegal. I blame the big bad evil gun culture, indeed. And especially the paranoid, trigger happy nutcases it breeds! Like Kaarma, who shot at first sight. A more responsible gun owner would have held Dede at gun point and tragedy would have been avoided. Still, risky behaviour, but much better than Kaarma's murderous rage, emboldened by his firearm.

It's the gun that creates the difference between a choleric person and a killer! But you folks do a big fat nothing to keep arms out of the hands of jerks who can't be trusted with them at all. That's evil, indeed.

madtaxpayer
madtaxpayer

yes gray, there are many gun owners who make the responsible gun owners look bad, just as everything in life. It's never the gun's fault (after all it is an inanimate object), it is always the person's fault. But putting all gun owners in the same bucket is unfair, many of us might have held them at gunpoint until the cops came especially if there were two adults in the home, but I can say if my husband was not home and 2 kids walked into my garage in the middle of the night I would not hesitate to shoot. As I have said before a single mother (or father) being burglerized has to think of the life of their children before the life of an teen breaking the law. In one split second that intruder could have pulled a pistol out of his pocket, it only takes a second. I have never been in that situation thankfully as many others have not either, we all actually have no right to say anything because we really have no idea how we would react until it happened to us. But I guarantee most of us would like to be prepared with a firearm just in case we are ever put in that situation. The police will NEVER get there before a family is killed. bullets are faster than cars.

Roger
Roger

Good point, Madtaxpayer. If someone unlawfully enters your home, you have no idea what they're there for - could be burglary, robbery, or perhaps just to kill someone.

Gray
Gray

Madtaxpayer, I really try to be fair. But the NRA's extremist position that there should be no checks and balances on gun ownership can't be tolerated. The reasonable majority in the US should force the lawmakers to implement a system that keeps guns away from people who can't be trusted with them. For heaven's sake, you require that anyone driving a car has a driver's license, too! No such limits for guns? That's irresponsible.

madtaxpayer
madtaxpayer

Here's the real problem gray, this judicial system never puts the criminals away or if they do it is just a slap on the hand and then they are let out again to kill, rob and rape again. You can never keep the guns away from the criminals, that's why the are called "criminals". And reputable gun retailers DO have requirements for background checks etc prior to buying a gun! But you will never get black market guns off the street, therefore those of us who are responsible (and also enjoy target practice and hunting) should not be penalized for those who are irresponsible. What needs to happen is the judicial system needs to work, criminals need to stay in prison for life so there will be less of them out there to threaten our families. This homeowner may or may not have baited the thiefs, but his possible gun irresponsibility should not reflect on those of us who have brains when it comes to the use of firearms and true protection of our families and homes.

DaveQ
DaveQ

Wow, this story gets worse and worse. I am astonished to hear that these kids were doing this. They must have known that they were putting their lives in danger every time they entered someone's property to steal things. Teach your children to ask permission before entering someone else's property. It's one of those rules that young adults and children have to obey no matter what. It's not worth the risk. My children have some rules that they cannot question or test. Like getting in the car with a drunk driver. Just don't do it no matter what. There is no exception to the rule. That's how I was brought up in Montana. I was never to hop a fencce or walk through people's yards unless I ask permission at the front door first. Entering a person's home uninvited could be fatal. That's what my Dad taught me. He also taught me that a gun (even a toy gun) is always loaded even if it's not. Once I was handling my weapon like it was not loaded and got my butt spanked and my rifle taken away.

Aerindel
Aerindel

If they didn't know it before they know it now.

madtaxpayer
madtaxpayer

so true, I hope this sad story will warn other kids what can happen if you don't follow the law.

MTminded
MTminded

Markus Kaarma hasn't even been arraigned yet and his defense attorney is attempting to try his victim in the newspaper. This gives me an indication of how truly weak his defense will be.
If there were strong enough evidence to acquit Kaarma, the defense attorney wouldn't need to say anything at this point in time.

huckleberryhaven
huckleberryhaven

So true, 100%. His defense attorney is grasping at straws right now. The only thing they have is that yes, the young man was trespassing. That has been established and we all know that. No surprise. That is where it ends. Everything else that morning, the events that took place, lies in the blood stained hands of Kaarma. And his common law wife.

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

That is not where "it" ends, if the young man's accomplice from Ecuador is to be believed. He is guilty of burglary, and not just in this instance.

MCA 45-6-204. Burglary. (1) A person commits the offense of burglary if the person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in an occupied structure and:
(a) the person HAS THE PURPOSE TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person knowingly or purposely commits any other offense within that structure.

Could the lawyer be making this announcement as an attempt to mitigate the death threats and the other lunacy from the "Pitchfork Platoon"?

MTminded
MTminded

I have read nothing regarding this particular incident that suggests anything other than trespassing. Burglary is a reach.

You're pretty good at citing State law. Which State law makes trespassing punishable by firing squad? Hint: it ain't the "castle doctrine".

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

@MTminded (below) Your inability to comprehend what you read is not my concern, nor my responsibility. I clearly said IF the other exchange student was to be believed and HAS THE PURPOSE TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE pretty much speaks for itself. Also, nothing in my post could be misconstrued as a condonation of Mr. Kaarma's actions.

Groggy
Groggy

In response to Mt's comment, just trespassing, burglary is a reach, So I ask you, walking across someone's lawn is trespassing and according to you, someone can actually enter an occupied home and as long as they keep their hands in their pockets and don't kick anything over, trespassing is the only viable charge ? come on, who walks around in a garage for the heck of it ? you kiddin me ? usually your remarks on are point, but today I think you forgot your Wheaties. Signs posted on fences say no trespassing, enter a personal structure be it a home, garage or shop, its burglary.

MTminded
MTminded

Groggy,

I'll borrow from Fawzhuh's post below: MCA 45-6-204. Burglary. (1) A person commits the offense of burglary if the person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in an occupied structure and:
(a) the person HAS THE PURPOSE TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person knowingly or purposely commits any other offense within that structure.

Point (1) of the statute would be trespassing (which I do not contest). But I have seen no evidence which indicates any reference to sections (a) or ( b). More may be revealed at trial but currently... As to the all caps portion: HAS THE PURPOSE TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE, perhaps the State Crime Lab can reconstruct the victim's brain well enough for the defense attorney to tell us all the victim's intent a split second before the shotgun blast tore him apart.

But all of that is moot anyway as trespassing and burglary are not capital crimes in Montana with punishment being meted out by homeowners.

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

@MTminded (below) If your going to "borrow" at least include all the facts. I clearly stated "IF the young man's accomplice from Ecuador is to be believed." And, no, point (1) of this statute clearly states "commits the offense of burglary" if (a) or (b) is established (as in a sworn statement from an accomplice). The statute that you want to cite is;
45-6-203. Criminal trespass to property. (1) Except as provided in 15-7-139, 70-16-111, and 76-13-116, a person commits the offense of criminal trespass to property if the person knowingly:
(a) enters or remains unlawfully in an occupied structure; or
(b) enters or remains unlawfully in or upon the premises of another.

As I understand "garage-hopping" here it is not a "nocturnal study of modern garage construction and design techniques". It has been defined as illegally entering garages with the intent of removing items of interest such as alcohol, drugs,electronics and "plastic" without the owner's permission which I believe meets the criteria of (1)(a) in the first statute I cited. Again, "IF the young man's accomplice from Ecuador is to be believed".....

MTminded
MTminded

@ Fawzhuh (below),

I was not borrowing your opinion. I was merely borrowing your citing of Montana Code, which is quite precise, by the way. You may have noticed the Code you cited (initially) states: (1) A person commits the offense of burglary if the person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in an occupied structure AND:. It is that conjunction AND that ties sections (a) and (b) to the definition of burglary. The AND means (a) or (b) must have occurred for burglary to have occurred. Again, we have no evidence, to date, that (a) or (b) are applicable in this incident.

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

@MTminded (below) Gee, thank you for re-stating what I said. I have never disagreed that, to date, the "evidence" doesn't support a charge of burglary. I was responding to aposter who stated, categorically, that a charge of burglary could NOT be supported by pointing out that IF (there's that word again) the Ecuadoran exchange student's statement could be corroborated in some manner then it would apply. As far as "evidence" goes, much of what is being reported here does not meet the standard any more than reporting his statement, yet, many of what I like to call "the Pitchfork Platoon" have tried, convicted and moved on to the sentencing phase. There is so much here that has yet to be determined. For example, many have decided he was “hunting humans” based on what he allegedly said to the hairstylist. Now, you and I, in discussion on these threads, could easily disagree as to what his stated intent was but it could be a very important distinction in a courtroom. He, reportedly, stated he was going to SHOOT, not KILL, a @#$!^&% kid. Something else to consider; his behavior, as reported, prior to this tragedy was erratic and could possibly be diagnosed as a mental condition, recognized by the DSM-IV and DSM-V, called Intermittent Explosive Disorder where one can develop rage borne of extreme frustration with circumstances. On the other side of the coin; considering only the information offered in the affidavit and the weather and light conditions it seems quite improbable to me that Mr. Kaarma could have struck Diren once, let alone twice, if he was NOT targeting him and using a “random sweeping pattern”. The average length of a car is 16’4” (the approximate distance he was reported to be shooting) and the “slug “ of pellets exiting the barrel of a shotgun don’t fully separate into individual pellets until nearly 28”and factor in that there was a waning crescent moon (10% visible), overcast skies, no streetlights or exterior houselights (read as very dark!) and the fact that our peripheral vision is more acute in the dark and distinguishes movement readily then it is possible that Mr. Kaarma MAY have, albeit instinctively or unconsciously, targeted perceived movement or light from a cellphone. As BJackson and Alan H Johnson have both pointed out, this one has a long way to go.

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

(below) Sorry where I typed 28" should read 28' (feet).

MTminded
MTminded

@Fawzhuh (below)

Objection, your honor! Relevance?!

You are correct, there are those who have made determination against Mr. Kaarma with only the facts that have thus far been released. But on the flip side of that same coin are those, if only allowed to testify, would prove this to be a simple situation of 'might-makes-right' and would have Mr. Kaarma as the grand marshal of the next parade.

Peripheral vision, DSM-IV and DSM-V, moon phases, shotgun pattern dispersal are all colorful embellishments but fail to answer the most important question this case must address: Did the homeowner, under the law, have just cause to shoot the intruder? Hypotheticals aside, the evidence to date suggests, no.

Fawzhuh
Fawzhuh

@MTminded (below) Hopefully, for your sake, you won't be seated on this jury so you don't have to suffer the banality of being subjected to all the "colorful embellishments", offered by the prosecution and defense as relevant, that this jury will be asked to consider in determining the answer to your most important question.

madtaxpayer
madtaxpayer

funny thing, the garage is attached to the home, the kitchen door is attached to the garage, therefore they are a threat by coming into their home via garage. We can have our doors open on our homes or garages any time day or night, it does not give a stranger/intruder the right to just walk on in! what is wrong with you people? how can you possibly think these kids are innocent? This isn't a normal thing decent kids do, this is against the law. a normal stupid thing kids do might be toilet papering a neighbors trees in their yard, but walking into a persons home in the middle of the night is not a normal prank, it's asking for trouble and that's what they got.

MTminded
MTminded

Don't get me wrong, madtaxpayer, I will not make claim that this shooting victim is innocent.. of trespassing. Part of adolescence is pushing against boundaries (social, parental, authoritative, etc.) and I suspect that is part of the attraction to "garage hopping". And it is wrong to trespass, but it is more wrong to shoot someone simply because they have trespassed. Again, we do not know all the particulars of this situation but I do not recall reading anything suggesting this intruder was acting as a threat to this homeowner.

You make a good point, most houses with attached garages (and I doubt this particular house is an exception) have a house-to-garage door. Those doors are generally an insulated core with steel or fiberglass skins on each side, or solid core wood. Very little barrier to a shotgun blast. This homeowner took several steps to be alerted if anyone entered his garage. When he became aware of an intruder, what would have been wrong with positioning himself, shotgun at the ready, on the residence side of the locked house-to-garage door. He could have yelled a warning to anyone on the other side of the door (while the 911 dispatcher, having already been notified, sent police cruisers to respond). If someone had attempted to force the house-to-garage door open, from the garage side, then, maybe, a defensive shot could have been fired.

Hindsight is 20/20, yes. But from what has been divulged thus far this homeowner was using foresight and taking nearly any step necessary to assure someone did enter his garage, with his knowledge, to become his target. He wasn't protecting his family, he was hunting a human.

Bass Whacker
Bass Whacker

I cautioned in an earlier post not to jump to conclusions on the story being steered by the Missoulian. After canonizing this kid for over a week we learn he was nothing more than a serial home invader and petty thief. Seems MPD takes police training from UM administration, letting an admitted felon flee to his home country, rather than book him and process him immediately. Now this prosecution has a due process problem letting an accomplis and eye witness flee. If they can't produce him for discovery and/or trial any prosecution of Kaarma may be fatally compromised. About the only thing which is coming through loud and clear in this, and other recent high profile cases is Missoula citizens are not getting competence in any form from local law enforcement and prosecutors. It would be comical if it wasn't so sad. Some things are so broken they can't be fixed. Missoula should look at starting over in both county and city law enforcement/prosecutor's offices.

familytruckster
familytruckster

Totally agree with you, Bass Whacker: no competence ANY leadership in Missoula- from Engen on down.

2buck2
2buck2

That does sound like a "smoking gun" for the defense case. Except that it was the defense lawyer that spilled the beans on it...before the trial. Any good lawyer knows that stuff is better left for the courtroom. Why aren't the police issuing this statement?

Aerindel
Aerindel

Probably because if they had done their job in the first place this wouldn't have happened.

BJackson
BJackson

A couple of interesting turn of events today.. Seems to me, that somebody should be talking to students at Big Sky and finding out what the heck they are teaching our visiting students.

huckleberryhaven
huckleberryhaven

......... and Hellgate High School. and Sentinel High School. Please don't be that naïve.

BJackson
BJackson

Not being naive at all, normal high school students have a tremendous amount of peer pressure on them and exchange student have even more, not only to fit in at school, but to fit in, in a new country that often times has a completely different culture than they are accustom to.. If you are denying that the students have an affect on each others behavior, then you are the one being naive.

Tracker
Tracker

I know, right? My child seems to be failing Garage Hopping and now graduation is in doubt. The grandparents can't get refunds on their airfare for commencement. I can't believe those stupid Big Sky liberal teachers are ruining our lives like this!

huckleberryhaven
huckleberryhaven

Guess the Defense Attorney didn't like the little tidbit released today about his client being high on drugs during the shoot out in his garage. Now time for 'his move' on throwing a bone out there about the murder victim. Anyway, garage hopping is going on all around Missoula, it's hitting all areas including the Sentinel HS and Hellgate HS areas. In this case, the homeowner was annoyed that it involved his stash of goods. Makes more sense now.

________________________________________


Wonder where the baby is while the pair are doing drugs...

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Interesting that the police haven't released any information to this effect? It's more interesting that his attorney could release this information to the media, yet the other foreign exchange student can't be named and has already returned to his home country? I guess his admission of guilt fixed everything so they allowed him to leave Montana? Something is a little fishy.

huckleberryhaven
huckleberryhaven

If he hasn't been charged with anything and he is a minor as well, by law, they are not allowed to release his name. I could be wrong?

Gray
Gray

As far as I remember previous reports, the police or DA DID say its possible the students had been garage hopping. The point had also been raised in comments here. So, is isn't really a totally new angle.

Ross
Ross

One has to wonder about the lack of responsibility on behalf of the school district in this case. What kind of vetting of the students takes place to prevent those with criminal proclivities from being imported into our community. What kind of host parents are being entrusted to monitor and mentor these foreigners. Judging from the fact that the host families of two exchange students, allowed their wards to prowl around late at night and commit multiple burglaries, there was not proper vetting of them either.

JakeJ
JakeJ

I completely agree on both points, but especially about that host family. Who would allow their guest minor to go out at midnight on a school night? Perhaps the shooter was on the aggressive side, but the host family bears a great portion of the responsibility here for not exercising their duty to supervise this young repeat burglar.

mslanativejojo
mslanativejojo

Mind your own business and don't steal from people! I hope all high schoolers who find garage hopping acceptable think twice before doing this again.

Gray
Gray

Do you hope all garge hopping students will be shot and killed?

I'mafraidofAmericans
I'mafraidofAmericans

Listen up, students at Big Sky, and every high school around town. Keep out of our garages, keep out of our cars.Don't vandalize our stuff. We work hard for the things we have. I hope that when you finally grow up, than no one vandalizes your property or steals from you, because it's a really cruddy thing to do to people and it feels really personal when it happens.
Find something else to do with your time, kids. Be wise. Smarten up. Being a thief and a trespasser are not the types of traits that make up a good person. Parents- make sure you know what your kids are up to, or keep them at home.
I'm sorry that this kid lost his life over something so dumb. Hopefully the youth of this town will take this situation into consideration before they decide to make stupid decisions.
And I'm not saying ALL Missoula teens are bad and horrible, so don't even go there.

RPT
RPT

DNLTM... Any questions?

DoNotLieToMe
DoNotLieToMe

Several actually. Was Kaarma selling pot to Dede? Was Dede there to purchase pot? Was this a way to get even with Dede for previously stealing his pot, or would Kaarma have shot anyone? Why has his wife not been charged as an accomplice? How was the other youth allowed to leave the country? Oh lookie (just added), now Kaarma is a former fireman. What difference does that make? Heart string tugging?

Aerindel
Aerindel

The fact that he was a fireman is as irrelevant as the fact that the german was a soccer player. Who cares what they where? all that matters is what was happening that night.

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